Posts by Van Gogh

15

show a little appreciation

by Merry Magdalene in

jw
friends

.

and remind someone how glad you are they are here...(i'll start).

jw_researcher...this bud's for you.

Van Gogh

Thanks for this board, all the people that feel like friends and everyone that has helped me. Wish I could meet some of you...
VG

51

what is the definition of a christian?

by sinamongurl in

what does christian mean anyway?

doesnt it mean a follower of christ.....a man?

arent "we" supposed to be followers of god and not man?

Great post Tex:
“For some, belief is perhaps the most difficult thing to ask.”
“The idea of grace is tempting, very tempting, and yet I need more (for lack of a better term) proof before I can go so far… I want to understand spirituality before this life is over. I can't help but feel I'm missing something.”
Shazard said: “Common. It is so simple. Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and has relationship with him as his big brother, saviour, king, friend, helper, protector etc. And "believe in Jesus Christ" is to believe in his Words and to believe that his Words are sayed to you personally. And to believe that he is Son of God. That is ethernal life! As Jesus Christ is ethernal life.”
Shazard, it NOT simple; that is what this thread is all about. Tex concisely stated WHY it is not simple: “When a child of abuse goes through the same dynamic, they will ask for one thing: Please make it stop. When that prayer goes unanswered, the impact is tremendous. It is an empty, lonely feeling.”
The problem is that belief is perhaps the most difficult thing to ask from those to whom distrust has become a hard-wired survival instinct – those who have had their most sincere beliefs and everything they held sacred about God and ultimate justice, often the very things that made them cling on to the WTS, discredited by that organization they entrusted themselves to, only to be spat out – those very vulnerable ones that actually cry out for a big brother, savior, king, friend, helper, protector etc. For those, believing is perhaps the most scariest things of all. The risk of being left yet again with an empty, lonely feeling might be just too much to bear.
-------------------------
Jesus said: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Yes, seeing is superfluous, but a gap remains to be bridged somehow. Why are many exjdubs on this board who turn to Christ not able to cross whatever divide after many years of prayer?
VG

36

I am going away for awhile.........

by anewme in

jw
friends

i am going away for awhile to try to heal my heart.

since my dfing i have tried so hard to make sense of what has happened to me.

to see it from the society's view and from freedom's view.

Van Gogh

Thank you for your kind-hearted contributions.

"I have tried to see everything from everyones point of view. I understand it. I value it. But I am exhausted from the effort."

Yes, I agree. In the end we can only find inner strength and conviction from within. I wish for you to be regenerated by it to find inner joy.

I should move on as well - but right now I would miss all of you too much. You will be greatly missed by many of us too.

Please check in again whenever this might be of benefit when exploring your path and climbing your bridges - or when you have done so to your satisfaction, come sit by this river once in a while so that we may be enriched by YOUR view of it.

VG

19

Threw away educational opportunities

by Cabin in the woods in

i actually wrote this late last night and when i tried to submit it i was rejected.

the reason for that is still a mystery to me and i vowed not to rewrite it as it would mean visiting myself and that is never easy.

sometimes as i look through the site and read to many posts i marvel at the beauty of the words and the complexity of the reasoning.

Van Gogh

Cab,
Thank you for sharing despite the tangible pain of revisiting. Never mind the so-called eloquence of others in writing; you spoke well, straight from the heart.
Yes, the 70s were not the best of times for a jdub to graduate. Age and the passage of years can easily make for melancholy when at this point in time looking back at those years. But please remember this is not uncommon for people in general.
Looking at, or comparing ourselves to, others all the time can cause a lot of unhappiness and discontentment. Yes, there are many brilliant posters here. There will always be those that are or appear to be better than others. They tend to stand out; perhaps tend to post more often. But is it realistic to focus on them? In reality you are not alone by far. We are with you.
Also, many of the “kids” on this board are in a much more favorable position: In this day and age it is much more common to attend college, if not an outright necessity. Times and circumstances have changed; young people are more independent and mature at an earlier age, the org is becoming less appealing as the years go by, there is much more information from books and the internet exposing the WTS, enabling them to get out earlier and make up for a few lost years. They are/were often luckier.
Do not allow your spark to be killed or your spirit to be crippled. Your spirit determines your true value for it is all you have in the end. Its value is not primarily determined by a college education. But if you feel its true potential has not yet been realized, and needs to be nurtured, fed and further developed by any kind of learning, then replace bitterness with immediate action and shine bright in the many remaining years of life. If you do, it will be that much more valuable and defining of who you are, because of sheer inner strength and fortitude instead of mere fortune and circumstance.
Fill the void with renewed aspirations and ideals. It is a precondition for spontaneity, joy, and being in touch with touch with yourself.
VG

20

For our Biblical experts: Artaxerxes reign began in 474 BCE?

by sir82 in

a question for leolaia, peaceful pete, narkissos, and/or any others who might know this:.

in this week's "what does the bible really teach" book study lesson, the appendix that is covered talks about the famous "70 weeks of years" prophecy of daniel 9:25. the society claims that the "69 weeks" runs from 455 bce to 29 ce, coinciding with jesus' baptism.. they derive the 455 bce date as "the 20th year of the reign of artaxerxes".

they claim that "historians agree that" artaxerxes began his reign in 474 bce.. i did a quick google search, and found absolutely nothing even remotely hinting at 474 bce as a beginning date for anyone.

Van Gogh

Wasn't the book of Daniel also written at the beginning of the second century AD - after Christ..?

44

1st post here, on a journey of discovery...

by kerc in

jw
friends

so after a very, very slow process, thinking over things that were stored in a little box in a corner of my mind, i've decided to finally confirm or deny all the doubts i've had about the society.

i'm a 34 year-old married man, work as an it consultant, with two kids, ages 9 and 2. i was "born" in the organization.

so i took everything as true, never questioned anything, and did all that was asked from me.

Van Gogh

Welcome to the board kirc!
VG

33

Why can we LOSE our Religion, but not LOSE it's effects on us?

by gumby in

another thread inspired by me chatting with our sweet little mary.... we who have exited the jehovahs witnesses religion, are now convinced we made the right move.

most of us have no doubt this religion is a destructive, cultlike religion that we wouldn't wish on anybody....and yet,.

....we still suffer the effects it had on us.

Van Gogh

Hmmmm... Interesting avenue Jgnat. First reaching out, doing meaningful work, giving... I will think about that.

74

True Christians neutral in War?

by Van Gogh in

today i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.

in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.

he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.

Van Gogh

LT,
I was referring in the first place to events in Sarajewo in 1914. The whole sequence of events may have been stopped there and then by non-aggressive means. As far as Hitler is concerned, Europe looked the other way when he rearmed in the thirties. The reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936 was a pivotal moment then imo. What I am saying is that “national feeling” justified war for the German nation and the individual German soldiers just the same. The “just war” thing can be used by both sides – to start a war as well. An unjust system does not produce just wars. I am approaching the subject from the perspective of preventative policies instead of actual military action when push comes to shove. This is where Christian morals could be focusing on more. But in the end the key question to answer here, without hiding behind convenient morals, is when an individual Christian can or even should take action.
I am not genuinely suggesting that, in the end, in the real world, the Allies had a non-aggressive alternative that didn't involve acceding to foreign dictatorship and eventual ethnic cleansing. So yes, pacifism can only exist by virtue of those that fight to protect it. A true pacifist will in the end give up his/her life by not interfering and perhaps leaving others to suffer perhaps more than they would through war – who knows? IMO, Rwanda only served to demonstrate that politics did NOT override either genuine or misplaced "altruism": no military peacekeeping force prevented the slaughter. I think pacifism is an overly idealistic and unworkable thing to hide behind. So no, I am not a pacifist and have to accept we live in an unjust world with which we just have to make do. As far as a Christian’s position is concerned, it depends on determining what his/her place and purpose is in “this world”, and where to draw the line with the other “Kingdom”. Within that position you either reject only overtly unjust wars based on your individual conscience, or you reject all wars, leaving you with the problem of essentially turning into a pacifist on the macro level, otherwise having to determine where to draw the line as far as self-defense is concerned on a more personal level.
VG

33

Why can we LOSE our Religion, but not LOSE it's effects on us?

by gumby in

another thread inspired by me chatting with our sweet little mary.... we who have exited the jehovahs witnesses religion, are now convinced we made the right move.

most of us have no doubt this religion is a destructive, cultlike religion that we wouldn't wish on anybody....and yet,.

....we still suffer the effects it had on us.

Van Gogh

Great and healing thread. I agree and empathize with everyone including uninformed: “there is nothing to do about it except commiserate with all of you. My respect and love to all of you.”
Gumby,
Yes, we are now convinced we made the right move and STILL suffer the effects it had on us.
We cannot lose that religion as 'truth' because we keep looking to replace it with a truth or an answer somewhere “out there” “in the book” (moanzy). But as dreamer said: NO ONE has the right answer.
Yes, many STILL have low self-esteem. Many have no confidence, feel unworthy, feel guilty.
Jgnat said: we can’t loose our history; our brains are hard-wired; we need to rewrite the programming and choose to go contrary to our "instincts", despite the fact that our entire being tells us it is true. (dreamer). We have taken the “red pill” and rationally know the “truth” was not the truth. Like fullofdoubtnow, it would be nice to take the “blue pill” and blank it all out. But we can’t, because it is all we have and all we are: Our HISTORY, good and bad, MAKES US (jgnat).
eyeslice put it concisely:
“…a total loss of identity. I has been a witness all my life, had given up lots for my religion, education, work opportunities etc, and was therefore only defined by who I was as part of 'God's organization'. I suddenly lost all that through no fault of my own and although I thought I could just walk away, it has been a long hard and sometimes lonely walk.”
This loss of identity can be compounded by parents who stunted any normal growth in the first place (moanzy and garybuss).
After summarizing these comments, I think the problem is that we keep seeking answers OUTSIDE ourselves. We were conditioned to distrust ourselves (our wicked heart). We should of course look INSIDE. But then we have another problem: Which inner voice or gut feeling do we listen to if, at he same time, we have to go contrary to our instincts and what our entire being tells us is true?
Yes, all these wasted years Jgnat… I agree with, and fully understand Gumby: “when you've become older, you don't feel you have ENOUGH time to learn… I'll be 70 when I'll learn things I shoulda known at 30!” but as you say, we’ve been through a unique experience. IMO age is crucial to some ones exit attitude. Raised as a JW and exiting over 40 it tends to become especially sobering. I found Ray Franz’s final words in CoC on his exit age and future prospects both poignant and consoling. Prolonging the WTS-induced self-doubt and cultivating a sceptical viewpoint can become a drag. Looking outside ourselves to others to see how we should be or could have been won’t make for much happiness either. In the end acceptance and forgiveness can make the seed bloom and make us bear fruit. We can choose to use those painful experiences make us MORE compassionate, MORE sensitive (Jgnat). Perhaps past experiences need to be conquered by those. Perhaps we’ll once find out that this is the reason we are/were here after all. Till we find out, faith is all we have.
Peace to us all.
VG

74

True Christians neutral in War?

by Van Gogh in

today i re-established contact with an older true - friend who is still a jw.

in the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd.

he is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his bible.

Van Gogh

LT
“…most so-called Christian nations reserve the right for an individual to conscientiously object to a given war that they feel is unjust.”
I think an individual can sometimes conscientiously object to war as such; not a given war (and certainly not a particular unjust battle or mission). That is the problem. It is an all or nothing proposition. Once you’re in you’ll have to refuse orders or desert. You cannot pick and choose. This is even more so the case with autocratic regimes where no such right exists in the first place.
“…nation of individuals feels that another nation is encroaching on neighboring nations' rights…”
If the dynamics of this scenario were only that simple. I think the picture can be a little larger here as well.
A nation of course always consists of individuals; this does not mean that the feeling of a nation necessarily equates the sum of individual feelings. National feeling has proven to be a treacherous touchstone for justifying wars.
There are always at least two nations of individuals; all nations usually feel their rights as being encroached on. Representatives of all nations stir up (propaganda) the (patriotic) feelings of individuals so as to create a sense of solidarity and shared fate: nationalism. This “national feeling” is imposed on all individuals. All individuals could eventually be made to feel their rights as being encroached on.
Feeling, or rather, thinking, truly becomes individual when it transcends “group thinking” or national sentiments. These independent spirits are usually ahead of the pack, discerning the dynamics that lead up to a crisis. They are often ostracized for preaching preventative measures. Eventually, resorting to equal and exacting force will be necessary, further strengthening the national bond. Here again national feeling can be a faulty compass.
That is how an essentially benign “Kulturnation” (a nation united by culture instead of by central administration) like Germany got caught unawares by ranting German emancipators from the 1870s onward. One incident in 1914 (out of countless other pivotal moments and developments in which preventative action could have been taken) was enough to trigger a preset treaty-induced mechanism compelling the individual nations - to whom the all the subjects had attributed their individual competence – to act on their (neighbor’s) infringed-upon rights. WWI and II could have been avoided at any stage before taking military action. Here it was legalism combined with national feeling; the individuals could only go to war without any say in it. Refusing to continue with the madness would get you shot on the spot.
Justifiable and necessary preventative military/humanitarian action becomes an increasingly workable and justifiable option within an international legal framework that is authorized to translate national and international feeling and indignation into clearly defined action governed and enforced by international law.
In a crowded world where nations are bound to bump into each other ever more, their rights and national feelings will be increasingly affected by the high tech defense industry, national and religious sentiments, intelligence services, trade barriers, energy and water.
VG